Jill, Mr. Frog, and the gang
Mr. Frog: By the way, I love your name. I collect frogs and think they’re smashing in every possible way. You asked, “I still have a question though...if Jesus was to be considered half man and half God, wouldn't he then have sin, since he was still partly man?”
Great question. See, as I understand it, that’s where the Miracle of God comes in. I think you have to understand the Trinity first. (Not a misspelling of a very awesome blogger.) I’ll try to get to that because it will also answer a question for Jill and so when you get there, apply that information here. My God, the Almighty, God of the Angel Armies – there’s so many monikers for Him – delights in being glorified. The most obvious way he does that is to fix what is broken. In fact, fixing what is SO very broken that there’s no other way it could possibly be fixed outside of Him is the primary way He receives glory. So there’s man’s sinful nature. Nature implies our tendency. Our inclination. Something in us that drives us there.
A scorpion needed to cross a river and couldn’t swim. He saw a turtle, “I say ol’ chap, would you ferry me across?” The turtle says, “But you’ll sting me.” He says, “Now now, dear sir, that wouldn’t make any sense! If I stung you, we’d both sink for sure. Why would I do that?” The turtle agreed. Half-way across, the scorpion finds a really great place to sting and does just that. As the turtle begins to sink, he asks the scorpion, “but why?!” and the scorpion replies, “Well, of course there’s no logic in it. It’s just my nature. I really couldn’t help myself.” Jill, as a fellow mommy, no doubt you’ve heard a child say or imply, “I just couldn’t help myself!” as an excuse. It’s our nature to do certain things. Sin became our nature (an instinct if you will) with Adam’s choice in the garden.
So why was Jesus half-man and half-God and yet without sin? God’s prophets prophesied hundreds of years before that the Messiah would come, born of a Virgin, and would be without sin because of that. Apparently, the sin nature is transferred through the father, as the curse on Adam in the garden implies. Though He is human, he is not of an earthly man. This is God’s set up and His great miracle. I can’t give you any other answer other than that. It was called hundreds of years before and the set up was in the Garden. Eve tempted Adam in the Garden. Her punishment was to bear children through pain.
Mr. Frog, you then ask me: “It seems silly to me that God would punish every person after Adam for his mistake. After all, if your God forgives people for their sins, and lets them into heaven...wouldn't he have forgiven Man at some point for a mistake that had been made at his creation?” You see, in the garden, Adam and Eve had innocence. They knew no evil. Now a child at a very early age knows you can’t take what is someone else’s but does it anyway. They know you can’t cut in line but still try. They know you can’t do something to hurt someone else but still do. In the garden, this knowledge would not exist. However, they were given the choice of the tree, the choice, not the temptation, to disobey God. They’re different. See, you have the choice to shoot the Mayor of your town. But you are probably not particularly tempted to do so. See the difference? The Bible says God tempts no man. He just put it there and made one rule. That one rule gave Adam freedom and made him more than a puppet. That conscious choice meant he could love God or defy Him. Glorify or dishonor him. It was up to Him in that way, not up to God. Satan tempted Adam by lying. Now, when Adam and Eve ate, their eyes were opened. They saw they were naked and a myriad other things that make for moral and immoral. Of course this knowledge passes on to children. It’s this knowledge that man did not originally posses alone that is passed through the father coupled with the inclination toward it that condemns man. It separates us from God. It means we are broken. We need Him. We have a chance to right a broken relationship by choice. Again, we have the choice. He’s not a God of brute force.
Jill! You have such a great grasp of philosophy. And I feel like we connect on the mommy thing. Here’s the first thing I see to answer: “Why can't one ask God directly for forgiveness? Why is accepting Jesus as one's saviour the end all be all?” This is where the Holy Trinity comes into play. I suppose you’ve heard that we are made in the image of God. God, like us, is a trinity. Think of it like an egg analogy. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit: God :: egg shell, egg white, egg yoke: Egg. The egg is not complete without one of those three. Same with God. We are like God’s image. We are soul (Father), spirit (Holy Spirit), and flesh (Son). Jesus was literally God in the flesh on earth. Christian terminology can get confusing, but that’s the breakdown.
So you ask, “why can’t we go to God directly for Forgiveness?” And the most wonderful fantastic news I’ve said all day is that YOU CAN!!! (sorry, can’t say it without getting gleeful.) When you pray to the father accepting the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ as your passover lamb, as your atonement, sacrifice for sin, as your bridge to Him, He gives it. Not only that, but He indwells within the believer through His Holy Spirit and all the sudden you’ve got an interpreter for spiritual things like the Bible. Now, you’re not reading “someone else’s mail.” The scriptures were written to those who already believe, see. And because of the Spirit, they’re living. In John, chapter 15, Jesus explains that a relationship with Him is the same as a relationship with the Father. “I and the Father are One.” Before he ascended, He said not to fear or be sad because he sends Someone, the Holy Spirit, who will comfort you and teach you all things. Jesus is as much the “end all be all” as YWHW (God) and the Holy Spirit is.
“This person prays to God for forgiveness and guidance but this person just doesn't believe in his heart that Jesus was actually the son of God.” Okay, what this person has done or hasn’t done is moot. In light of the fact we all fall short of His glory (Romans 3:23) we’re all equal here. Now, praying for forgiveness. That implies the person is convicted, or burdened and bothered, by their sin. They don’t like the fact that they’ve done wrong and are separated from their creator. They want to get right with Him. Again, I believe, because the scriptures say so, a person can only feel this way because the Holy Spirit causes them to feel this way. Romans says, “no one is righteous, no not one … no one seeks God.” That means we are all just as likely as not to set up our own little idols in life and worship them instead of our creator because it’s easy and hurts less, we think. We don’t have to actually change or be responsible. The god might be money or sex or drugs or family or food or whatever. Even self. So we’re drawn by Him. That’s evidence of His word being true and His Hand in a person’s life. Now if a person asks for forgiveness and actually seeks it, I believe that is a step in the right direction. I think a person must be at the point of seeking God then. They must be ready to do what He says and follow Him. I think then, the Holy Spirit takes over. The Bible teaches us the Spirit works like this: through prayer, through fellow believers, through the Word, and through circumstances. A word of warning: nothing the Spirit says will ever contradict the Bible because He wrote it. They all have to match up and you know you’ve got a word from God. So here I am making a gospel presentation to you, Mr. Frog, and whomever else may happen this way. That’s my job description this side of salvation, see. I can’t help it; when you’ve got the good news and have witnessed it with your own life, time after time He’s proved Himself, you wanna tell everyone. My answer: He’s pulling that person you described toward His grace that is available through the perfect sacrifice He made though Christ. The person can want so badly to be forgiven but still reject the Savior, you said.
I want you to notice something about your question. You’ve said, “I don’t think God would condemn that good person to hell” – and I apologize for the near paraphrase there. But I think you’re saying a relatively good person (not a murderer) can go to heaven based on his or her own goodness and merit. That God won’t condemn them. I notice that your answer is based on looking at yourself. You’re seeing “me me me me me” here. No offense, but your premise is based on how good you are. On this side of salvation, the Spirit points out to me how short I fall of His glory when I’m not dependent on Him. When I leave His side I don’t resemble Him at all. And He’s perfect so I want to resemble Him, not me. I want to mirror Him. I can’t be a light by myself; I have to shine so I reflect His light. All I see is “Him Him Him Him” and how perfect He is and that I DON”T measure up. But when I’m mirroring Him, man it’s a great feeling. I love myself then because I’ve no weight on my shoulders at all; he takes it all. That’s what he means by my yoke is easy and my burden is light.
So here’s the real question. It’s not “would God condemn a good person?” but “would God keep His word about those who reject His coming to earth in the Flesh, His ministry, His bloody death on the cross to bear our sins (For the wages of sin is death Rom 6:23), and his ultimate defeat of death in resurrection, as well as the guidance of the Holy Spirit who time after time drew that very person only to be rejected?” Would he really condemn a person for having in his/her hands the thousands year-old record of prophesies for the Messiah, the Truth about Him, and then tossing it? You’re asking really, “Is God a Just God?” Does He keep His word? Did Jesus suffer, die, bear all sin, and raise from death for no reason at all? If there were other paths to heaven, I think He’d have encouraged us to take that one and wouldn’t have given His Son as a sacrifice. Notice the prophecy through Abraham and Isaac on the mountain… Abraham said, God will provide a lamb for himself. And he did.
Phantom: You’re very entitled to your opinion and I’m glad you speak them and have such an amazing freedom to do so. “I've always thought that Heaven and Hell exist as dreams that we have on our deathbed.” I imagine it’s a lot like a dream at first. But if you’re right then I’ve lost nothing. If I’m right, you’ve lost everything…
Shades of Grey: Good point here: “How would any of us here on Joeuser have the slightest clue about the decision process of an omnipotent and omniscient being of any disposition? Most of us can't even tell what *Muggaz* is thinking! I think Jill has a perfectly valid idea. I just live my life and what deal witht he consequences of it in the afterlife if there is one.” The only way I know what God is “thinking” is that He recorded it in Scripture. In OT times, he had a prophet. Nowadays, we have the Holy Spirit within every believer and through that, as I explained, He reveals his plans to us. Amos 3:7 says, “Surely the Lord does nothing without first telling his servants the prophets.” We know what He’s doing because He tells us. He tells us what we need to know. He wrote a great Word that the Spirit uses to teach us all thing. See, that’s the part about Him being omnipotent and omniscient… : ) Because of what I believe, I wouldn’t wish that sort of “sort it out later” afterlife on anyone. You’re basing your decisions on something that will be too late to deal with when you can be lead now by Him.
Rev 3:20 says “Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyman hears me and opens the door, I will come in and sup with him and him with me.” Sup means eat; we try not to eat with people we don’t like. We eat with those we have a relationship with. If you’ve ever heard Him knock at your heart’s door before, or you hear him knocking now, then invite Him in. Believing is one thing, receiving is another. (John 1:12). You have to do both. He doesn’t barge in just like I woudn’t were I knocking on your door right now.
If I left someone's comments out, please forgive me, it was unintentional. I work early in the morning and I'm a wee tired... : ) I look forward to your responses...